Crypto Coin Talk – Making Heads & Tails of Digital Assets 

IBKR’s Andrew Wilkinson and Steven Levine speak with SEBA Bank’s Yves Longchamp and Felix Schleimer about the benefits, risks, and concerns of adding cryptocurrencies to your portfolio. This deep discussion dives into the global cryptocurrency market, its correlation with traditional assets, research strategies, volatility, portfolio management and diversification, as well as ESG-related issues, and the emergence of digital assets as a new asset class. 

Summary -Traders’ Insight Radio Ep. 9: Crypto Coin Talk – Making Heads & Tails of Digital Assets 

The following is a summary of a live audio recording and may contain errors in spelling or grammar.  Although IBKR has edited for clarity no material changes have been made.

Steven Levine 

Hello and welcome to IBKR Traders’ Insight Radio podcast. I’m Steven Levine, senior market analyst at Interactive Brokers, here with Andrew Wilkinson, IBKR’s director of trading education. Good morning, Andrew. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

Good morning. 

Steven Levine 

And today on this program will be speaking with two distinguished guests from Switzerland-based SEBA Bank: Yves Longchamp, head of research, and Felix Schleimer, associate director. And will be talking about cryptocurrencies – their growing allure as an asset class, and the benefits and risks of adding them to your portfolio for diversification purposes. 

Yves and Felix welcome. 

Felix Schleimer 

Thank you very much for having us on.

Yves Longchamp 

Thank you very much. 

Steven Levine 

Very happy to have you here. 

You know, it wasn’t very long ago that cryptocurrencies had a rather bad reputation. I mean, some years ago when a company mentioned it was accepting Bitcoin as payment, for example, it would typically trigger some skepticism. Maybe the company was using it for nefarious purposes – most likely a money laundering scheme. Today there appears to be a very different perspective. 

According to your webinar with us, I now understand that across the US, Europe and Asia, sentiment about digital currencies and the financial markets in general have become mostly positive or neutral. Digital wallets have soared to more than 30 million. There are now nearly 16,000 different cryptos with a combined market cap of roughly $2.4 trillion.

Major retailers like Whole Foods and Home Depot accept Bitcoin now via digital scanners, and theater giant AMC Entertainment recently said it would accept Ethereum, Litecoin and Bitcoin Cash by the end of last year. These seem to be added commercial benefits to what has drawn many market participants toward digital assets. Notably, the blockchain and the decentralized nature of those currencies, as well as, perhaps, waning trust in sovereign fiat currencies. 

I know you, Yves and Felix, talked about this among other topics and in your really great webinar for IBKR, which, Andrew, I believe you hosted early in January. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

Yes, that’s right. Yves and Felix you both gave a terrific webinar for our listeners. This was called Digital Assets: What You Should Know for Your Portfolio DiversificationBut before we dive into some of the more striking points of that presentation, could you first tell us why investors should consider diversifying into this asset class? 

Yves Longchamp 

Yes, sure, thank you very much. 

I think when you want to have a diversified portfolio, what you would like is to take exposure to different types of assets. And it seems quite clear that digital asset is a new asset class. And I think this is one of the key points why it makes sense to have a few cryptocurrencies, or let’s say more in general, the digital asset in the portfolio. It’s a new digital asset: Why? It’s a new digital asset because the main price determinants are completely different. We are not talking about coupons like bonds. We are not talking about cash flow. We are mainly talking about network, about the security, or the hash rate, about different value drivers … and because they are different, they add diversification in a portfolio. So, I think this is definitely one of the key elements. And maybe the second one would be that blockchain is a technology. And to have this technology in a portfolio is also a way to take exposure to something that would probably be part of our future. 

Felix Schleimer 

And I think if I can just add a point to Yves’ good introduction to why it’s a new emerging asset class: Any investor who is looking at the technology space, which we’ve seen tremendous growth, I mean, even new areas such as electric vehicles. This is a new emerging technology that will be adopted by a number of existing companies. You know, Maersk, one of the largest shipping companies in the world already uses blockchain as part of their shipping containers. And I think what’s really exciting about this space from an investor point of view is that for one of the first times, you actually get an opportunity to invest in a new technology whilst it is still very much at its infancy.

Normally, what I like to call this is democratization of venture capitalism in a certain way. You can invest as little as $1.00 if you want to, or you can invest more, but typically this wouldn’t be possible unless you were one of the big venture capitalist firms or private equity houses. But Yves, I completely agree with your point, blockchain and crypto, they go hand in hand. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

I also recalled that you showed a chart of correlation over the past three years between Bitcoin and other traditional assets, such as stocks, gold, and bonds, and what I found intriguing was that the relationships were remarkably low. Can you describe this and explain why you think this is happening? And, also, put some perspective on the size of the blockchain and crypto global asset market in general. 

Yves Longchamp 

Sure, I think this question is perfect after the one you mentioned before, because this is a new asset class and the value driver, or the price determinant, are different from any other traditional asset we’re used to. You may expect to have low correlation, and as we mentioned, correlation is no causation. 

I think here that we have different cause and so we observe low correlation. So, on average, if you look as you mentioned, the chart that we presented during the webinar. If you take kind of a five-year average, correlation is very low. It’s always hovering on zero, something between 0-0.1 for equities, [for] bonds, it’s slightly negative, and gold as well. Obviously, this is on average, over the last five years. 

If you look at recent market changes, then you probably know that Bitcoin’s price dropped by about 50% in the in the last few months. So, obviously it’s considered as a risk-on asset. It’s very much correlated with equity, in particular NASDAQ. So, if you take global equities, or in particular S&P … I just checked before this podcast, correlation is now 0.42. So, it’s not anymore close to zero percent. Bonds, it’s -0.2. Gold is about +0.1. So, there is some kind of correlation. But again, I think that the narrative about low correlation remains. 

There has been already some cycle, and each time we have observed a correction in prices. Very often you have the correlation with other asset classes that increase, but on average, or we say on the long-term, correlation seems to be quite low, and then it definitely adds diversification to the portfolio. So, it has diversification, because you have no correlation, almost, or very low correlation, and it definitely adds a new source of return. 

You mentioned also the size of the crypto market. You mentioned something like $2.4 trillion. So, after market correction it’s slightly lower, but I think fundamentally the idea remains the same. It’s roughly 1% of global equities and global bonds combined, so it’s pretty small, but it’s growing. It’s growing really fast. The number of currencies is developing quite fast. The number of use cases is developing, and there’s definitely more use cases coming. So, I think one of the key elements is to realize that blockchain is not only Bitcoin. There’s more than that. There are more use cases, and I’m sure we will come back about that later in this podcast. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

What are some of the questions that investors should ask about any of the 15,000+ cryptocurrencies as they consider investing in any of them, and how should they approach researching cryptos? 

Yves Longchamp 

Absolutely, there are lots of cryptocurrencies, something like 15,000+. And so very often people start with Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is the one that everyone knows. 

We think that it’s worth going a bit beyond Bitcoin, because there’s a lot of value behind that. 

But there is one keyword we use: this is called “do your own research”. So, diversifying your portfolio is fine, but please don’t just buy one fancy crypto just because one of your friends told you that this was the best to have. I think there are a few elements you need to look at, and we define seven elements. I will quickly go through them. 

The first one is to look at the technology. There are many ways to organize a blockchain. It’s very important to understand how it works, and what is the advantage.

The second one is about the team, except for Bitcoin with Satoshi Nakamoto, and no one knows who he is. Most of the time they are well structured companies that will start up with a road map. You know who they are. You can check whether they really exist, how they are respected or how they behave in the community, what their track record is, and so on. So, team is also quite key. 

The third one is use case. I quickly mentioned that there is more than just Bitcoin. You have plenty of types of cryptocurrencies, and it’s key to understand why if this specific coin’s useful— because it adds something new, because it’s part of the new ecosystem.

Something which is maybe not specific to cryptocurrency, but in general, this is regulation. 

Regulation is a key element. The first one would be the community; you can observe the community using Twitter and different social media. You will see what people think about that and that can give you information about who will use it.

Finally, absolutely key, governance. Governance is all about how the cryptocurrency works. And last but not least – a bit technical — but for those who love game theory, they will like this part. This is token economics, which definitely explains why you have a crypto currency in this specific blockchain, and how it accrues value. 

So again, if I just sum up tech, team, use case, regulation, community, governance, and ‘tokenomics’ are the seven key elements that we look at before investing. 

Felix Schleimer 

Maybe if I can add one point here given that I speak to a number of investors on a regular basis. I think I completely agree with Yves’ point that you should do your own research. And perhaps if I can put some color around this, or make this a bit comparable – there’s a reason why a lot of people invest in something like an S&P tracker. You know, no one has the time to sit and do individual research in a lot of different equities, or bonds, or technologies within ETFs [exchange-traded funds] for an example. 

So, I think as an investor you also have to ask yourself, are you going to hold the underlyings yourselves? Do you want to go through and really understand and look through all of these seven elements which Yves just mentioned? Or are you then going to do your own research when it comes to which managers are you going to choose and select and outsource that to? Because at the end of the day, you need to diversify your exposure not just your portfolio. There’s no point having a diversification by having a little bit of Bitcoin in your in your portfolio as a diversification tool. Diversify your blockchain exposure as well, or your crypto or digital assets, whichever words you want to use. 

I think that’s a really key element to hammer home.

Steven Levine

Yeah, it’s really fascinating. You mentioned use cases. What I find really interesting is a stablecoin called Tether. It seems to be a kind of derivative. It seems to tie its value to some underlying security or commodity to mitigate the risk of volatility in the cryptocurrency sphere, which Bitcoin, among others, appear to be prone to.

What was really striking to me in your research was that crypto returns come at the cost of higher volatility. I believe it was in your presentation, for example, that over a six-year period the average volatility associated with the S&P 500 index was around 15%, while for Bitcoin it was somewhere near 70%.

Yves Longchamp 

Absolutely, yes.

Steven Levine

And so, that’s huge. And we saw what happened for example, in the rollout of El Salvador’s currency. I know they had some other operational difficulties, but after they moved to acquire Bitcoin as its legal tender, the value of that crypto plunged around 20% on its first day. I find this all very, very fascinating. 

So, can you tell us please, why are there these outsized moves in cryptocurrencies … in volatility?

Yves Longchamp 

Thank you for pointing that [out]. I think it’s probably part of the very nature of cryptos. I mean, except for stablecoin, which per definition are stable, and then you can expect no volatility. All the others really show high volatility. And this is a fact, this is a matter of fact. And even though the volatility of Bitcoin has slightly declined over time, it has remained pretty stable at something like 70-75% annualized volatility. I mean, on good weather, so when everything is fine. So, it’s really high volatility. 

Why is it the case? I think it’s probably a few elements. First one is it’s still a small market, and just for you to imagine if you – two and half trillion [rough, combined market cap of cryptocurrencies]. And if you compare it to the size of the Fed, balance sheet of the Fed is but almost 9 trillion. So, the Fed could easily swallow the whole crypto market a few times.

So, it’s quite small, and you can imagine that you don’t have the liquidity needed to absorb all this movement. Second, this is also dominated by retail. You don’t have a lot of institutional investors, even though they are coming. They probably don’t behave the same way as an institutional investor would do, and you have also very often leverage. And you know that leverage goes both ways, and this is a great source of volatility. 

Steven Levine 

Would you say that within the retail space that there are very few holders where crypto is concentrated? Are there whales in this sector, or in this asset class, that can alone, say one or two, create these volatile moves?

Yves Longchamp

Well, you have, indeed, what we call ‘the whales’ having a huge position that may influence the price. This is something that we that we observe sometimes. That’s right. But I’m not sure this is always the case. This is definitely part of the element, and when you invest in crypto, you have to understand who owns what, and to see if there is someone having too much power, kind of a too big position into the market.

So, I think it’s key. Actually, it’s true for all the traditional assets, but it’s even more important for crypto assets. But I think when you have leverage, and you go to some exchanges that offer you, for example, 10x, 20x, 50x leverage, and you want to give it a try, and you take up positions, I mean, and a lot of small fishes are doing the same, I think at the end of the day you have a huge impact on the market. And I think that the size of the market, and the fact that you don’t have any, let’s say, buyer of last resort, or buying crypto when it’s kind of what we call ‘dirt cheap’ is probably one of the elements. And I think it’s also linked to the fact that, what’s the fair value of Bitcoin? Should it be 20? 50? 100? 1 million? I don’t know. No one knows. I think this also one of the difficulties. 

But, I mean to be very concrete, or to give a piece of advice to people that are listening to this podcast, I mean, if you want to diversify your portfolio, ideally, what you’d like to have is an asset that is going up so you have a great source of return. You have no correlation then you add diversification, and you would like to have no volatility. The problem is you cannot have all of them, because volatility goes in both ways. I mean, you cannot have a cryptocurrency going up a lot without volatility. You know, you have the good side and the bad side of volatility. 

But given the very nature of cryptocurrency, which seems to be on average, uncorrelated, offering a great source of return with a high volatility, it’s all about sizing. And so, what our research shows is that when you invest single-digit, something between 2-6% according to analysis, you get the best. You have diversification, and nice appetite to build portfolio and even if the market drops by 50% you continue to sleep well, yeah. 

Steven Levine 

Yeah, yeah, it’s really interesting, and I wonder if Bitcoin, or cryptocurrencies in general, as an asset class, or an emerging asset class, has matured beyond the perception that I recall it having maybe a few years back. I know Bitcoin seems to be one of the more popular names. ‘Bitcoin’ comes up in conversation when talking about cryptos, and I’ve heard people say, ‘What do you think of Bitcoin?’ … when really they’re saying, ‘What do you think about digital assets in general?’ 

So, for perspective, in how much of the universe of these 16,000 some odd tokens out there, does Bitcoin really represent? And has this changed over the past four or five years? 

Yves Longchamp 

There are many questions, and as you can imagine, there are many answers to your question. 

I mean, first of all, it’s key to keep in mind that Bitcoin, let’s say was, and is, the first digital asset. It was the first digital asset, because it started in 2009, and because it was the first one and the only one. So, the market cap of Bitcoin was 100% at the beginning, and even up to 2017, virtually 100% of the market cap was Bitcoin and then the market share started to erode. And today, and it’s not long ago — think about 2017 and today—  So, for crypto it’s quite long, but I mean it’s still a few years, so the market share of Bitcoin has declined from about 100% to 40% today. So, we have a huge increase in the price of Bitcoin, but at the same time you have a lot of new use cases. So, I think that the market has definitely evolved. 

Steven Levine 

I find it very interesting about the use cases, and if different tokens or different coins have different use cases, how do they track Bitcoin? Or do they track Bitcoin? So, if Bitcoin goes down, is that a representation or indication that all coins are going down? 

Yves Longchamp 

I mean, correlation within the cryptoverse, or digital assets, is still very strong and very high, and even though they are different, they should not– They behave very similarly, meaning that when Bitcoin corrects, then very often all coins correct as well. And the other way round. So, there is, there is still a very strong correlation, but it’s not 100%. For example, I just checked what happened with Bitcoin corrected correlation with Ethereum was about—Ethereum, the second largest cryptocurrency with a completely different use case, correlation is about 0.8. So, it’s high, it remains high, but it’s not 100%, but that’s true. Actually, Bitcoin is the cryptocurrency that everyone looks at. It has a dominant role, and it really keeps, or it gives the reason to the whole crypto space. So, I think this is something also quite interesting to look at. 

And maybe if I could just add one point…. You know, there is more than Bitcoin, indeed, because there are 16,000 cryptocurrencies, but not all of them are very much relevant. If you look just at the top 20, 

I think we can say that, roughly speaking, the top 20 coins cover 80% of market capitalization. So, it means you have a few lucky ones that get a lot of interest, and where you have liquidity you can honestly invest, and the rest are very small. Maybe they will be the winners of tomorrow. But I think this is also a different way to build your portfolio: if you want to have some kind of liquid assets, or if you prefer to enter, more as Felix mentioned at the beginning, the venture capital side, where you try very early, and if it works, that’s fantastic, but it’s a different type of risk. 

Steven Levine 

I just wanted to make this this point that if the crypto sphere is highly correlated, as it is, it sounds like perhaps the use case isn’t being brought to the forefront for investors or traders of these currencies as much as maybe it could. It sounds like if they take that out of the equation, they’re all going to correlate with each other as if they were all serving the same purpose, but—

Felix Schleimer

I think there’s a really interesting point you mentioned there, Steven. One of the things, which a lot of investors are not particularly looking at is what can crypto assets do for them, so to speak.

Let’s actually look at this use case. And I think what’s been so fascinating to see over the last 12 months is, for an example, how NFTs [non-fungible token] exploded.

NFTs almost became their own digital asset, but nonetheless people don’t maybe understand that NFTs are still built on blockchain technology. So, if you hold the underlying blockchain technology, take Ethereum for an example, you still benefit from NFTs becoming a use case.

So, there are a number of different ways of looking at this, but I agree with you, a lot of people are still confused between Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and confuse the two words with each other. But also, very few people are looking at the actual technology behind something such as NFTs. So, we are kind of in an evolving space at the moment. 

There’s an analogy which I think is very relevant, which puts things into perspective for people. And let’s go back 22 years to the year of 2000, and I’m pitching Google to you. I’m pitching a decentralized information platform, a browser, and people would have turned around said I don’t need that. I have the encyclopedias at home. There’s no use case for this. But if you think now, no one could have imagined what Google has evolved into over the space of 22 years in terms of it’s an absolute staple, not just of our everyday life, but ‘Googling ‘as a term has eroded all other use cases. I often like to ask people the question how many older search engines can you still name to this day? 

And it’s a limited answer, and it I think that’s there’s a lot of similarities between the early 2000s, where we had an explosion of websites. You had a lot of the dot-com bubble really bringing everything to the forefront. And maybe there are some similarities between 16,000 cryptocurrencies or technologies being live today. We don’t know which ones are going to survive in 22 years, but I think if you if you start really looking into it and understanding which ones have a use case that is worthwhile to implement, there are some real winners to be picked up. 

Steven Levine 

That’s a great analogy. 

Yves Longchamp 

And if I if I can just jump in here….  You have a lot of different cryptocurrencies with different use cases. I will just name them just to show the variety: platform tokens, governance tokens, stablecoins, utility tokens. You can have derivatives. LP tokens, or NFTs, and so on.  Anyways, so the idea is not to go into details, but just think about a Windows system. So, you use probably Windows or Linux or whatever every day, but actually you don’t. You have very little interaction with that. What you use is Word, is Excel, is PowerPoint, is your browser, and so on. 

And you have to see that most of the platform blockchain, like Ethereum, for example, is like the Windows ecosystem for values, and then you have a lot of different applications. And then the question I would ask you is what is the value of Windows? Because Windows alone doesn’t have a lot of value. 

So, you are happy to use it because it offers you applications like Word, Excel and PowerPoint and so on. 

But then again, I say what’s the point of having Word and Excel if you don’t have Windows? Where would you save your data? Where would you find it the day after? And I think you can really imagine that you have some platform at a very low level, kind of a layer, on which we can build decentralized applications on the top of that, and NFTs could be one of them, or the defi— for decentralized finance— can be built on that.

And this is why you have 16,000 different cryptocurrencies. You have a few, you know, there are not many Windows systems, but you have tons of applications, and this is also something that we observed. So, I think that just to put some perspective, yes there are actually 16,000+ cryptocurrencies, but again, you cannot compare Word and Excel versus a Windows system, because the purpose is completely different. 

Steven Levine 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

Yves, just coming back to the webinar you conducted with us a few weeks ago…. You talked about the Sharpe ratio and its role in measuring portfolio risk and return. First of all, can you please explain to the audience what the Sharpe ratio measures and then how has investing in crypto impacted portfolio returns and the Sharpe ratio? 

Yves Longchamp 

The Sharpe ratio is a functional metric that modern portfolio theory says that this is the one we should look at. It essentially measures the unit of return you get per unit of risk. So, if you have a Sharpe ratio of one, it’s actually for one unit of risk you invest. Risk is measured by volatility. You got one unit of return. If you have a Sharpe ratio of two, meaning that for one unit of risk, you have two units of return, meaning that if you can move your portfolio from Sharpe ratio of one to Sharpe ratio of two, your portfolio is twice better, and that’s really the idea. So, it’s a way to rank different types of portfolios using metrics that you can use for any type of investments.

Andrew Wilkinson 

So, in your opinion, what’s the composition of a balanced global portfolio? 

Yves Longchamp 

The way we started, or studied, was having 50% of global equity, 40% of global bonds, and 10% of commodities. And then we say let’s add 5% of crypto, and then you need to reduce the exposure accordingly. And yeah, so that’s— So, you will have 95% in traditional assets: global equities, global bonds, commodities, and 5% of crypto. This is actually what the analysis shows as something being reasonable when you have the best from diversification, low correlation, and you can still sleep well because you need to take into account the volatility which may be even higher than the 70% we mentioned before. 

Steven Levine 

Really, really terrific. I’m going to switch on over to ESG – environmental, social, governance concerns, and I know that cryptocurrencies have come under fire…. I believe it’s more on the environmental side, I believe, but what is the argument exactly from your point of view, and where do you weigh in on that?

Felix Schleimer 

I think it’s a really fascinating topic, and it’s clearly something that is [happening] throughout our entire society – a high, very topical conversation that we’re having at dinner tables, we’re having in offices and we’re having on podcasts. But it’s very typical that we do exactly what we’ve done now. We focus a lot of energy on the ‘E’-front, but we also have to remember that there is a social and a governance part here to be considered as well. And I think for all the negativity that Bitcoin has, especially I’m going to use Bitcoin specifically on the energy front because it consumes so much energy. A side point is that that’s also what makes the system so secure, but we can talk about that in more detail, but on the social and the governance side, there is a lot of benefits to crypto assets on these two ESG letters, let’s call them.

On the social aspect, it means that everyone can have access to it. Everyone can, at the moment, invest. 

But also, on the governance side, that you can actually control how the transactions have taken place. You know, blockchain is very good for governance. If I sell my car to Yves, he will have a complete track record if it’s on the blockchain, with what the previous, not just the ownership, which is what we’re interested in today, but also, how much did you drive it, Felix? When did you last do a service? Have you changed the oil recently, etc.? 

So, from the governance point of view, there are so many benefits here which we’re perhaps not giving it credit for just yet, because we’re not quite there yet coming back to the use case. But I think that those are two big letters which we should be talking about favorably for crypto assets. But also, on the fact that when you’re looking at energy, I think driving a car is perceived bad, but let’s look at what type of energy is used to propel the car forward. 

If you use green energy, is that still as bad then? And where is the energy coming from? And I think we’ve seen a shift in digital assets in cryptocurrencies to move away from dirty coal mining towards more sustainable and more green resources. Ethereum, the second largest one, is moving from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake1. So, there’s a conscious effort by the entire community to be better and better and better in this space as well. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

So, one last question for you before we wrap up. I wonder for those investors who are decidedly more skittish and are simpler products to invest in such as ETFs, ETNs [exchange-traded notes] or other ETPs [exchange-traded products], and if so, what are the advantages or disadvantages of doing so? 

Felix Schleimer 

I think that’s a very good question to end this on Andrew, thank you. 

Yes, there are a number of products out there. There’s a number of different ways to invest into crypto assets. I’m going to break it down into kind of a crossroads to start with, and the first question that investors have to ask themselves is whether they want to own the cryptocurrencies themselves. Are they comfortable with the risk, or do they need to have a so-called ‘digital wallet’ for it? 

But given if you are a skittish investor, and you’re starting to dabble in this in the first time, there are a number of investment products out there which are easy, quite straightforward. You can buy these ETFs. ETN, which stands for exchange-traded note, and ETP, which is an exchange-traded product. They’re all very similar to each other, and you can buy them, if they’re listed at most of your brokerages, or even at Interactive Brokers. 

But the advantages and disadvantages on what you need to be aware of is regulation. Where are these products coming from? Which jurisdiction? Who’s behind them? What licenses do they have? And I think coming back to Yves’ earlier point of ‘do your own research’, this is as applicable here as it is on the individual tokens. What are the fees they’re charging you on the back of this and how are they constructed? Because when it’s at its infancy, there’s a lot of different ways of how products are structured.

And what are the safety elements here? What happens if a company who has listed – launched this product – goes under or disappears? Do you still have access to the underlyings, as in the coins themselves?  And that simply means that whether you have bought a synthetic product or not. And I think one of the most incredibly important conversations to have with investors when they start to look at this is on the custody front. You might buy a product, but where is it held and by whom? 

And what are their regulatory requirements and who are they? 

But nonetheless, coming back to what we talked about – be aware of the volatility. A good tactic that we often employ people to use is set yourself an allocation like Yves has talked about. Whether that be between 2 or 6% and then maybe take your profits to ensure that you remain at that level to kind of reinvest your profits. But keep a balanced portfolio. There is high volatility. There are a number of different tokens out there, but there are some good products, some good managers out there who know their stuff in this space. Do your due diligence, do your checks on who they are and where they’re based, and then there’s plenty of opportunity for all investors out there, be it retail or institutional. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

That’s absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much, Yves and Felix for joining us. We really appreciate your time. 

Steven Levine 

Thank you so much. 

Yves Longchamp 

Thank you. 

Felix Schleimer 

Pleasure, I thought it was a really interesting conversation. 

Andrew Wilkinson 

Brilliant, our listeners can learn more about this topic in SEBA Bank’s webinar presentation: Digital Assets: What You Should Know for Your Portfolio Diversification at And you can also keep abreast of their market commentary at IBKR Trader’s Insight at

Until next time, this is Andrew Wilkinson, here with Steven Levine, for Interactive Brokers. 

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In accordance with EU regulation: The statements in this document shall not be considered as an objective or independent explanation of the matters. Please note that this document (a) has not been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research, and (b) is not subject to any prohibition on dealing ahead of the dissemination or publication of investment research.

Disclosure: Digital Assets

Trading in digital assets, including cryptocurrencies, is especially risky and is only for individuals with a high risk tolerance and the financial ability to sustain losses. Eligibility to trade in digital asset products may vary based on jurisdiction.